It's odd that these 2 sexual prohibitions are listed as having the punishment of "ariri," meaning to be childless. Usually these are besdin -- court -- punishments. Is it true halachically that there is no court punishment?
On a side note, in on of our more absurd and yet classic interactions, I asked her to read the rashi so I could evaluate how her blind rashi reading is. (People ask how I know how my children are doing in school if I don't administer tests. I sit next to them as they do their work and get a feel for if they understand the material and are capable of doing it or not.)
Chana wanted me to read it to her. I said if I read it to her, I won't be able to tell how she is at reading a rashi she's never read before and has had no introduction to.
We bickered back and forth a bit. I tried some Playful Parenting techniques like pretending to be a teenager and reacting how she reacts. It did break the tension and it was fun, but it was not actually effective in getting her to read the rashi. So I turned back into Mom and insisted.
She was annoyed, but she did it. Then I started to translate it and somehow I annoyed her by not doing it how she wanted me to, and she refused to finish the rashi.
Today is the next day and we haven't done that rashi yet. It's Friday and now that Shabbos is late, I often think we have plenty of time and then we don't. I still have to make Shabbos and I don't know if I want to tangle over this rashi today. I've been not very contentious about rashi lately, because she's been reluctant.
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It still has karet and therefore malkut, see issurei biah 1:1 and , 1:7 and hilchot sanhedrin 18:1 and 19:1
ReplyDeletethanks! i didn't know that something with the penalty of kares gets malkos.
Deleteit's kind of strange to me, since i associate the death penalty as more severe than lashes. but kares as more severe than the death penalty.
is it halacha l'moshe misinai that kares violations (with witness and warning?) get lashes?
what is the idea of giving lashes?
Yes, surprisingly the death penalty is more severe a punishment than kares.
DeleteIt is not a halacha lemoshe misinai, but rather that all lavin get lashes, which includes those which are chayav karet, unless they are excluded.
It serves the purpose of teshuva/kappara, that if the person punished by malkos does teshuva the kares is removed, see hilchot sanhedrin 17:7.
The gemara discusses these issues in makot 13b at the top and 23a at the bottom
in what sense do you mean more severe? to me, being cut off permanently from the jewish people is more severe than death. at least with the death penalty, there is still olam haba and eternity.
Deletethank you for the explanation that all lavin get lashes, which includes kares violations.
Legally it is more severe, for example if you have a choice between two issurim you choose the lighter, and a chiuv karet is lesser then a chiuv mitah. (for the full order of punishment levels see the Rambam's comments on Avot 2:1 "hizaher bmitzvah kalah kivichamura"
DeleteI suspect the reason that karet is less severe is that if a person does teshuva they don't lose olam haba,
am i wrong that if a person doesn't do teshuva for, let's say murder, he still doesn't lose olam haba? ie kol yisroel yesh lahem chelek l'olam haba except for the following etc. and i don't think people who die from death penalty lose olam haba.
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DeleteYou are factually correct that the crimes with the death penalty do not necessarily cause one to lose olam haba.
DeleteHowever it is interesting to note that chiuvei kares are also not on the list of exceptions to "kol yisrael yesh lahem chelek leolam haba"
The rambam's explanation of kares in the moreh (3:41) is also interesting :
"ודרגת חיוב הכרת, והיא המלקות ברצועה עם הדעה כי עברה זו מן החמורות.
Also, perhaps when measuring the severity of onshim, we aren't measuring the metaphysical significance of the consequence, but how they serve in a sociopolitical framework.
as an aside: Murder has its own difficulties since it (at least in some sense) is worse then all other issurim (hilchos rotzeach 4:9 - the case of achav).even those whose technical onesh is worse.